[0 - 2] - Today's episode has something for everyone.
[2 - 5] We've got ice cream, martinis, Doritos, seaweed,
[5 - 7] ketchup and fried rice.
[7 - 9] Oh man, it's gonna be good.
[9 - 13] Wait, did I mention we also have Kenji? (upbeat music)
[16 - 19] Today's story starts in 1908, when chemist Kikune Ikeda
[19 - 23] extracted a compound from kombu or giant sea kelp.
[23 - 25] He had isolated crystals of glutamic acid,
[25 - 28] and those crystals provided the super savory,
[28 - 30] mouth filling taste we know today as umami.
[30 - 32] A year later, he figured out how to mass produce
[32 - 35] a sodium salt form of glutamic acid
[35 - 37] known as monosodium glutamate, MSG.
[37 - 40] It wasn't until as recently as 2000,
[40 - 42] that molecular biologists were able to identify
[42 - 43] the taste receptors for glutamate.
[43 - 45] But identify them, they did.
[45 - 47] Umami is the fifth taste, along with salty,
[47 - 49] sweet, sour, and bitter.
[49 - 50] Glutamate rich ingredients
[50 - 52] show up in cuisines across the globe,
[52 - 54] and also way back in time.
[54 - 55] The ancient Roman fish sauce
[55 - 58] known as garum would've been packed with umami.
[58 - 61] Here is just a small selection of seriously umami rich foods
[61 - 65] and ingredients, kombu, katsuobushi, or bonito flakes,
[65 - 70] marmite, Parmesan cheese, nori, soy sauce, fish sauce,
[70 - 74] oyster sauce, anchovies, tomato paste, and ketchup, yum.
[74 - 76] Some foods naturally contain relatively
[76 - 78] high levels of glutamate.
[78 - 80] So here we're talking about kombu, tomatoes,
[80 - 82] mushrooms, and potatoes, and many more.
[82 - 84] Things like tomato paste and ketchup are high
[84 - 85] on the yum scale.
[85 - 87] Largely because the naturally occurring glutamate
[87 - 89] in the fresh tomatoes has been concentrated
[89 - 90] by removing water.
[90 - 92] But most of the big glutamate players
[92 - 95] have achieved their elite status thanks to fermentation
[95 - 97] and the breakdown of proteins
[97 - 98] into their amino acid building blocks,
[98 - 100] specifically into glutamic acid.
[100 - 102] Here, I'm talking about things like soy sauce,
[103 - 104] fermented bean paste, and fish sauce.
[104 - 106] Each starts with a rich protein sauce,
[106 - 109] either soybeans or fish, that gets transformed
[109 - 112] into a sauce or paste that is a wash and savory glutamate.
[112 - 114] Now up to this point, I'm sure some of you are like,
[114 - 116] "Dan, I already know all this stuff.
[116 - 118] I'm the queen of glutamate." Okay, okay.
[118 - 121] Well, first off, it's a pleasure to meet, you highness.
[121 - 123] Second, let's go a little bit deeper then.
[123 - 124] Glutamate is pretty powerful,
[125 - 126] but just like the rest of us,
[126 - 128] it gets much stronger when it has help from a friend or two.
[128 - 129] In the case of glutamate,
[129 - 132] those friends are a couple of cool nucleotides
[132 - 134] called inosinate and guanylate.
[134 - 137] Now we talked about how a couple of receptors on our tongue
[137 - 140] are tuned specifically to the glutamate radio station.
[140 - 142] They send signals of savoriness to our brain
[142 - 143] when glutamate shows up.
[143 - 146] If one of those nucleotides happens to be in your mouth
[146 - 148] at the same time as the glutamate,
[148 - 149] something pretty amazing happens.
[149 - 151] The nucleotides actually change
[151 - 153] the shape of the glutamate receptor,
[153 - 155] allowing it to send even stronger savory signals
[155 - 156] to the brain.
[156 - 159] Think of it as switching from AM radio to HD audio.
[159 - 161] And that's not even an exaggeration.
[161 - 163] When glutamate and these nucleotides are present
[163 - 165] in about equal amounts in food, the strength of umami
[165 - 168] is as much as 20 to 30 times greater.
[168 - 173] There's only one word for that, and that is synergy?
[174 - 177] I mean, yeah, I guess it's synergy,
[177 - 179] but I was looking for like a wow or awesome,
[179 - 181] maybe even a cowabunga.
[181 - 183] Whatever, I ruin the whole moment.
[183 - 186] The point is, it's pretty, pretty awesome synergy.
[186 - 187] Take a look at this chart.
[187 - 189] On the left are foods rich in glutamate,
[189 - 192] and on the right are foods rich in these nucleotides.
[192 - 194] If you pair one from the left and one from the right,
[194 - 196] you are taking advantage of the synergy.
[196 - 199] Dashi combines glutamate rich kombu seaweed
[199 - 201] with nucleotide rich bonito flakes.
[201 - 204] While a Caesar salad features the synergy of anchovies,
[204 - 205] which contain a big hit of these nucleotides
[205 - 208] and glutamate packed Parmesan cheese.
[208 - 209] Even the humble cheeseburger,
[209 - 212] where cheese provides glutamate and the beef supplies
[212 - 215] the nucleotides, puts this amazing science into practice.
[215 - 217] Snack food makers know the science really well,
[217 - 218] and they use it to make chips
[218 - 221] that are basically impossible to stop eating.
[221 - 223] Doritos, for example, contain monosodium glutamate
[223 - 226] and isolated forms of these nucleotides.
[226 - 228] They show up on the packages as disodium inosinate
[228 - 230] and disodium guanylate.
[230 - 233] Man, what savory world we live in, huh?
[233 - 235] Okay, that is plenty of talk for now.
[235 - 237] I too get better with the help of friends.
[237 - 239] And I was thrilled to have some time in the kitchen
[239 - 241] with my bud, J. Kenji Lopez-alt,
[241 - 243] or as you all know him, Kenji.
[243 - 246] We talked umami, MSG and wok cooking,
[246 - 248] and we had such a good time and covered so much ground
[248 - 250] that I'm showing a lot of our conversation
[250 - 253] mostly uninterrupted by me, mostly.
[253 - 254] Let's go to the kitchen.
[254 - 256] First off, I was really interested to know Kenji's
[256 - 258] personal connection to umami and MSG.
[258 - 260] I also really wanted to know how Kenji
[260 - 262] uses glutamate rich ingredients in his own cooking.
[262 - 264] So I laid out a bunch of them for him.
[264 - 267] - All right, so, I mean, down the line, kombu,
[267 - 272] so kombu is where MSG was first synthesized from, in 1908
[272 - 274] or something like that. - Yeah.
[274 - 276] - So yeah, it's very MSG rich
[276 - 278] and this is the base ingredient for dashi,
[278 - 279] which I use a lot of at home.
[279 - 281] So if I'm cooking Western food,
[281 - 284] what I'll often do is I'll add either straight MSG,
[284 - 288] or sometimes I add either Marmite, or fish sauce,
[288 - 289] or soy sauce.
[289 - 290] Those kinds of flavors,
[291 - 292] you can put them into something heavy,
[292 - 294] like a beef stew or chili.
[294 - 295] And at least I find,
[295 - 296] and you might be more sensitive than me,
[296 - 299] but I find that you don't really taste them in there.
[299 - 301] You just get this umami boost,
[301 - 305] if you have those things around and you don't have MSG. This katsuobushi,
[305 - 307] the other in great ingredient in dashi.
[307 - 312] I think the theory is that the inosinic acid
[312 - 316] in the fish products, dried shellfish and dried fish
[317 - 319] have glutamic and inosinic acid.
[319 - 323] And the theory is that inosinic acid is like a multiplier
[323 - 324] when you have them together,
[324 - 328] That's why you do the shaved fish and the kelp,
[328 - 329] because they boost
[329 - 331] each other umaminess. - They boost each other? - Yeah.
[331 - 332] - But what I find really interesting,
[332 - 335] and the reason I have these Doritos here is,
[335 - 336] this is really known stuff
[336 - 339] in the food manufacturing world, right? - Right.
[339 - 341] - For a lot of people, they don't think about inosinic acid
[341 - 343] and they might be more familiar with glutamates,
[343 - 344] but these guys have mastered it.
[345 - 346] - And you can even see on the packaging,
[346 - 349] it's got monosodium glutamate pretty up high,
[349 - 352] and then further down, it's got the disodium inosinate,
[352 - 354] and another one, the guanylate.
[354 - 359] And so they're basically just crafting this super umami,
[359 - 362] super savory thing that ends up being really like,
[362 - 365] you don't wanna stop eating it because it taste so good.
[365 - 367] But I love that you can use it in your own cooking.
[367 - 369] - They have it literally to a science thing.
[369 - 370] - They literally have it back to science.
[370 - 371] - They tested the crap out of this.
[371 - 373] - While we took a little break to eat Doritos,
[373 - 376] because, well, who can look at Doritos and not eat them?
[376 - 378] I grabbed some unseasoned, homemade chicken broth
[378 - 380] for a little science experiment.
[380 - 382] Given that we were both pretty big science guys,
[382 - 385] I figured it'd be easy peasy to put together and do,
[385 - 387] but then we had to do a lot of math.
[387 - 390] So we have a really basic chicken broth here.
[390 - 391] This is just some chicken wings,
[391 - 392] simmered in water for about 30 minutes.
[392 - 394] And so I thought we could use this as a fun experiment
[394 - 397] to show the impact of salt and then the impact of MSG
[397 - 398] by dividing out.
[398 - 400] So we're gonna leave this one plain.
[400 - 401] - Okay, the control.
[401 - 402] - That's gonna be our control.
[402 - 404] For this one, we're gonna add just salt.
[404 - 406] So we're gonna go with three grams.
[406 - 408] - Three grams to 150.
[408 - 409] - Yeah, to 150 mil. - So that's 2%.
[409 - 413] - Yeah, 2% is what you would salt it to at a restaurant
[413 - 415] where you want people to drink more beer. (Dan laughs)
[415 - 419] - So we've got three grams of salt going into that. - Okay.
[419 - 422] - So the next one we're gonna go salt and MSG. - Okay.
[422 - 427] - So we're gonna do point 0.75 grams of MSG to start.
[427 - 431] - So we're going with a quarter of the amount of MSG as salt?
[431 - 432] - And so it's, obviously,
[432 - 434] a lot less than what we're gonna do for salt there.
[434 - 437] And then we just wanna make up for that sodium
[437 - 438] that we're missing from the salt.
[438 - 439] - Okay, so actually, all right,
[439 - 441] so we're gonna add still the three grams of sodium to here,
[441 - 445] but then we'll need to add MSG has a quarter, sorry,
[445 - 449] a third the amount of sodium of table salt by weight.
[449 - 452] So for the added 2.75 grams of MSG here,
[452 - 454] we actually need to add,
[454 - 456] are we gonna subtract from the table salt here,
[456 - 457] or are we gonna add to the table salt?
[457 - 458] - I think probably subtract,
[458 - 460] if you think that's the right one. So subtract.
[460 - 462] - Yeah, so we'll subtract a quarter
[462 - 464] of a gram. - A quarter.
[464 - 465] - So we're gonna do 2.75.
[465 - 469] - 2.75 of salt 2.75 of MSG.
[469 - 470] That makes it the same amount of sodium.
[470 - 473] MSG and salt, once they're dissolved,
[473 - 476] the sodium comes out and they both dissociate.
[476 - 478] And the sodium is the same sodium.
[478 - 479] - Right. - It's just sodium.
[479 - 481] - We're doing great.
[481 - 483] All right, so we've done some really hard math. (Kenji laughs)
[483 - 484] - And now we've loaded them up.
[484 - 486] So this is plain, this is our control.
[486 - 488] It's completely unseasoned. - Right.
[488 - 489] - In this one we have salt, salted to the level
[489 - 490] that we want.
[490 - 493] We have salt and MSG here, and then-
[493 - 494] - Same level of sodium, I guess.
[494 - 495] - Same level of sodium, so we're matching that.
[495 - 497] And then here we have just MSG.
[497 - 499] We're not matching the sodium,
[499 - 503] because to get that level, it would be so much MSG in there. - Yeah.
[503 - 505] - And probably wouldn't be a good representation.
[505 - 506] So this is awesome.
[506 - 507] All right, let's taste through.
[507 - 508] I've got tasting spoons for you there.
[508 - 511] And maybe just talk about what we're tasting.
[512 - 513] - Smells like chicken.
[513 - 515] (Kenji laughs) - Smells like chicken.
[515 - 517] - It tastes like, it does taste like chicken.
[517 - 520] There's definitely chicken flavor underneath there. - Yeah.
[521 - 525] I almost get more sweetness than any kind of savoriness.
[525 - 527] It's a little bit savory, not salty at all.
[527 - 528] - And do you think it tastes a little bit sweeter
[528 - 531] because you're used to having something like that with salt,
[531 - 532] and so without that in the balance-
[532 - 532] - Maybe, yeah.
[532 - 533] Maybe it's just the filter in my brain
[533 - 535] that's telling me it's sweet
[535 - 537] because I'm expecting it to be salty.
[537 - 538] I don't know, yeah.
[538 - 540] - All right, well, let's see how much it changes
[540 - 543] with a little salt added to it.
[545 - 547] A lot of salt added to it.
[547 - 548] It's really good though.
[549 - 550] - It's a lot of salt.
[550 - 552] (both chuckle) - A lot of salt.
[552 - 553] - It was a lot of salt.
[554 - 556] It's definitely more chickeny than the first one.
[556 - 557] - Yeah, for sure.
[557 - 558] I can easily taste it.
[558 - 559] - Totally more in there. - Yeah.
[559 - 561] - So after agreeing that it was a lot of salt,
[561 - 563] we decided to dilute them all to the same level
[563 - 566] using the unseasoned broth, that way they'd be comparable,
[566 - 567] but not overtly salty.
[568 - 569] You're all following along, right?
[571 - 572] It's a little bit less salty.
[572 - 573] It's still pretty salty.
[573 - 576] - That's still pretty salty. (Dan chuckles) It's surprising.
[577 - 579] It was still pretty salty, but we kept plugging along.
[579 - 582] We were also tasting this at a slightly warmer
[582 - 583] than room temperature,
[583 - 585] whereas a soup like that, we probably want 180, 190.
[585 - 588] - A lot more, so you get more aroma coming out (inaudible).
[588 - 590] - Yeah, and I think, actually, your threshold for salt
[590 - 592] cuts off at that point, right? - Yeah.
[592 - 593] - It would taste best in this little range.
[593 - 594] - It would taste less salty with when it's hotter.
[594 - 596] - Is there salt in MSG?
[596 - 600] - Yeah, so for me, I don't know if it's the same for you,
[600 - 604] but for me, again, it's that sort of filling
[604 - 607] the back of your mouth flavor,
[607 - 610] where it hits you in salivary glands.
[610 - 613] - One thing I also noticed here is the length of the taste
[613 - 616] after you've swallowed is much much longer, right?
[616 - 617] - Yeah, way, way longer.
[617 - 620] - Longer flavor, that's what we're after today. (Kenji laughs)
[620 - 622] All right, so let's go with this one, which is just MSG,
[622 - 627] and see what the effect is not having salt in the mix.
[627 - 628] - I still get some of that sweetness
[628 - 630] that I got in the first one, for sure.
[630 - 631] A lot of the flavors are the same as in the first one,
[631 - 635] but maybe it's a little longer.
[635 - 637] - Yeah, what I'm wondering is am I actually tasting
[637 - 640] more chickeny flavor, where with the salt one,
[640 - 642] I definitely was tasting more chickeny flavor. - Right.
[643 - 645] - With this one, am I just tasting MSG
[645 - 649] and also there's chicken flavor involved? - Yeah.
[649 - 650] - That make sense?
[650 - 653] - Yeah, do you need them both
[653 - 657] for it to have any positive effect? - Yeah.
[660 - 661] I would argue yes.
[661 - 665] - Yeah, I mean, it's certainly not a salt replacement.
[665 - 668] I do think this stock with MSG tastes better
[668 - 670] than plain stock.
[670 - 672] It's not like leaving the salt out of your food. - Right.
[672 - 674] - It's like you need the salt if you want it to taste good.
[674 - 676] - Difference between a baseline and something
[676 - 678] that takes it up to that- - Exactly.
[678 - 679] - Next level.
[679 - 679] - It's like a nice addition.
[679 - 683] But if I didn't taste him side by side, would I miss it,
[684 - 686] especially in a more complex dish? Maybe.
[686 - 688] - And we finally came to some conclusions.
[689 - 690] So, all of that math aside,
[690 - 693] that was a fun little experiment that definitely allowed us
[693 - 697] to analyze the impact of salt and MSG on how we taste food.
[697 - 699] My takeaway, which is by no means groundbreaking,
[699 - 701] is that salt is a must,
[701 - 703] as it brings out the flavor of everything around it.
[703 - 707] MSG can add a rich layer of savory depth and mouth fullness
[707 - 708] and works well with salt.
[708 - 711] MSG on its own can improve a dish,
[711 - 712] but it won't get you all the way there.
[712 - 715] As Kenji put it, it's not a salt replacement.
[715 - 718] Okay, so we've already come a long way with MSG today,
[718 - 719] but there's a big question
[719 - 720] that we haven't even addressed yet.
[720 - 723] It's one that is asked about MSG a lot,
[723 - 725] and that is, is it even safe to eat?
[725 - 727] I checked with Kenji for his thoughts and analysis
[727 - 728] of the published studies.
[728 - 731] - Yeah, I mean, so MSG is a difficult one to discuss
[731 - 736] because it has this history that's fraught with racism,
[737 - 740] that started with racism and got a lot of people
[740 - 743] afraid of eating at Chinese restaurants.
[743 - 745] Falsely associated MSG use with Chinese restaurants,
[745 - 748] even though it's used everywhere.
[748 - 750] Every snack you've ever had has MSG.
[750 - 752] My general outlook on anybody who claims
[752 - 754] they have any kind of sensitivity to something
[754 - 755] is just believe them, right?
[757 - 758] If they don't want it, don't give it to them.
[758 - 759] Does it matter?
[759 - 761] Maybe it's psychosomatic
[761 - 762] In some cases, it probably is.
[762 - 764] There are studies that show that in many cases
[764 - 766] it probably is psychosomatic, right?
[766 - 767] Does it matter? It still bothers them.
[767 - 770] So you should still respect that.
[770 - 773] It's pretty clear that there's no effect from MSG
[773 - 774] through straight ingestion, right?
[774 - 776] So if you take it in a pill form,
[776 - 777] it dissolves in your stomach.
[777 - 781] It goes into your bloodstream through the stomach, no effects.
[781 - 783] The place where there might be some kind of issue
[783 - 785] is in you oral ingestion.
[785 - 788] So when people eat food with it or drink a liquid with it,
[788 - 790] people who say that they're sensitive to it
[790 - 794] or have had what they call MSG symptom complex,
[794 - 796] which may or may not be related to MSG,
[796 - 798] but people who claim to have gotten those,
[798 - 803] do get them slightly higher than placebo percentage
[803 - 804] in the studies I've seen.
[804 - 807] But the issue is that those studies
[807 - 808] are really difficult to control,
[808 - 812] because you have to be taking the MSG orally.
[812 - 814] And even when you try and hide it, you can still taste MSG.
[814 - 816] - Right, like what we were just doing here,
[816 - 817] yeah, very tastable. - Yeah, exactly.
[817 - 820] So the people who claim to be susceptible to MSG
[820 - 822] also probably know when they're drinking MSG.
[822 - 827] So is it placebo, is it in their head, who knows?
[827 - 829] There's a huge amount of observational evidence for this.
[829 - 831] And there's not a lot of lab evidence
[831 - 833] to try and parse out what is what.
[833 - 836] So we should continue studying it,
[836 - 838] both to figure out is this actually MSG related,
[838 - 840] or is it just something MSG adjacent?
[840 - 842] MSG often comes with a lot of other,
[842 - 845] peanut oil, things like that.
[845 - 846] - Potential allergens.
[846 - 846] - Potential allergens,
[846 - 848] other things that you might be sensitive,
[848 - 849] or some combination of ingredients
[849 - 850] that you might be sensitive to.
[850 - 852] So I think we need to figure out exactly what's going on,
[852 - 853] because there clearly are people
[853 - 856] who are getting some kind of symptom,
[856 - 859] whether it's MSG or not, who knows?
[859 - 859] - Yeah, that's good.
[859 - 861] I mean, it's definitely a balanced take
[861 - 862] in terms of understanding.
[862 - 863] And I really like your takeaway,
[863 - 868] that if it bothers you, even if it's a placebo situation,
[868 - 871] that's real and you should follow that. - Yeah.
[871 - 873] And don't call someone a liar about how they're feeling.
[873 - 875] - Don't call people liars.
[875 - 877] I think that's good advice throughout life.
[877 - 879] So Kenji's take on the research is, of course,
[879 - 880] just that, his take.
[880 - 882] You can have your take, I can have mine.
[882 - 883] At Cook's Illustrated,
[883 - 886] we've long held the stance that MSG is completely safe.
[886 - 888] And part of what factors into that conclusion
[888 - 890] is that in studies, any reported symptoms,
[890 - 893] whether real or perceived are both localized,
[893 - 895] as Kenji mentioned, and don't have lasting effects,
[895 - 897] which is a good thing.
[897 - 899] Because MSG, whether in its isolated form
[899 - 902] or naturally found in everything from Parmesan cheese
[902 - 904] and seaweed to mushrooms and tomatoes,
[904 - 907] is pretty hard to avoid, and it's really, really tasty.
[907 - 910] I really wanted to see Kenji using MSG in action
[910 - 911] and do some wok cooking.
[911 - 913] So it's fried rice time.
[915 - 917] - This is a Western style range.
[917 - 918] And one of the issues with cooking
[918 - 919] with a wok on a Western style range
[919 - 921] is that they have, a lot of them,
[921 - 923] well, some of them have star shaped things,
[923 - 924] some of them have interior burners,
[924 - 925] but a lot of them have a diffuser
[925 - 926] that spreads the flame out,
[926 - 930] which is exactly what you want on a Western style skillet,
[930 - 931] because you want that wide even heat.
[931 - 932] But on a wok, you actually generally
[932 - 935] want the heat concentrated a little bit more below.
[935 - 939] So I try to pre-heat.
[939 - 942] So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna take a little bit of oil,
[942 - 946] just a teeny bit, and rub it in.
[946 - 949] And that's basically gonna be my temperature indicator.
[950 - 951] When I was at ATK,
[951 - 952] and I don't know if this is still the case
[952 - 955] with the way you word your recipes,
[955 - 958] but most recipes started with putting the oil
[958 - 959] in the skillet first and then preheating it.
[959 - 960] - Exactly, yeah.
[960 - 961] - So that way you can tell.
[961 - 964] At 300 degrees, it's gonna be shimmering, right? - Yeah.
[964 - 967] - At 400, whatever, it's gonna start smoking.
[967 - 970] I used to try and do that method with the wok.
[970 - 971] It doesn't actually work in wok cooking,
[971 - 973] because generally you're preheating your wok
[973 - 975] to temperatures that are way higher than that.
[975 - 979] You're getting up to 550, 600 degrees, at least.
[979 - 980] And if you put all of your oil,
[980 - 981] all the oil you're gonna cook with
[981 - 982] in there at the beginning,
[982 - 984] and wait till you get to that temperature,
[984 - 986] that oil has been smoking hard-
[986 - 987] - Smoking hard. - For along time.
[987 - 989] - And it ends up facing really bad.
[989 - 990] - Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
[990 - 993] - So I put in just a teeny, teeny bit that I use
[993 - 995] as my temperature indicator.
[995 - 997] - And you can a little bit of beading
[997 - 998] and that kind of stuff.
[998 - 999] - Yeah, exactly.
[999 - 1000] But I'm gonna let it go until it's pretty heavily smoking.
[1000 - 1001] - Fully smoking?
[1001 - 1003] - Yeah, so when it's fully, then I'm gonna add
[1003 - 1005] the oil I'm gonna cook with and immediately start cooking
[1005 - 1007] so that the oil doesn't get the chance to burn.
[1007 - 1008] All right, so we're gonna go with our eggs.
[1008 - 1013] The eggs, I preheat on high, and then I turn the heat down.
[1013 - 1017] Oil, we're gonna let that spread across the surface.
[1019 - 1020] We'll go on right in with our eggs,
[1020 - 1021] and hopefully they won't stick.
[1021 - 1022] Let's see what happens.
[1026 - 1027] - So you're back up to high?
[1027 - 1029] You give it a little gentle.
[1029 - 1030] - Yeah, exactly.
[1030 - 1033] Otherwise, what can happen is the eggs can really browned
[1033 - 1037] really hard, essentially non-stick.
[1037 - 1038] - That's awesome.
[1038 - 1039] - I'm just gonna cook this on one side,
[1039 - 1041] give it a little turn.
[1041 - 1042] So I'm leaving them just slightly undercooked,
[1042 - 1043] so that by the time,
[1043 - 1046] because they're gonna go back in the wok with the rice
[1046 - 1047] at the end. - (inaudible)
[1047 - 1050] - So they are gonna harden a little bit more.
[1050 - 1052] All right, so now we're gonna start
[1052 - 1054] with our other ingredients.
[1054 - 1055] - And how long have you had this wok?
[1055 - 1057] - This wok I've only had for like a month.
[1057 - 1058] - Really? - This is the fifth
[1058 - 1060] or sixth time I've used it. - Okay.
[1060 - 1063] - Because I got this wok specifically to travel with.
[1063 - 1065] So the only seasoning this wok has,
[1065 - 1067] is I seasoned it once to be,
[1067 - 1068] I scrubbed out the manufacturer's coating.
[1068 - 1070] I heated the whole thing once till it turned black,
[1070 - 1072] and then I've cooked with it three or four times
[1072 - 1073] on an induction cooktop.
[1073 - 1075] - That's what I find so amazing about woks.
[1075 - 1080] And people often think you have to get a Grace Young-style, beautiful black.
[1080 - 1080] - The shinny black, yeah.
[1080 - 1082] - Before it's even good to go on.
[1082 - 1084] But it's starts way before that.
[1084 - 1087] - Yeah, well, it's also, so woks are different.
[1087 - 1089] When you say seasoning for a wok,
[1089 - 1091] it's not the same as seasoning
[1091 - 1094] for a Western style cast iron pan.
[1094 - 1098] So a cast iron pan, it generally heats pretty evenly,
[1098 - 1100] and it's perfectly flat.
[1100 - 1101] It's easy for the seasoning to stay on.
[1101 - 1103] And so you build up these layers of polymers, right?
[1103 - 1105] The polymerized oil.
[1105 - 1108] And you build up these layers of thick glossy seasoning.
[1108 - 1112] With a wok, your heat is divided.
[1112 - 1113] So you're very hot at the bottom,
[1113 - 1115] and then it gets less and less around the edges.
[1115 - 1119] So you have this built in stress that's causing the metal
[1119 - 1121] to expand and contract at different rates, right.
[1121 - 1121] - That's really interesting.
[1121 - 1123] - So it's really hard to build up that seasoning.
[1123 - 1126] Plus, you're frequently adjusting the heat from high to low,
[1126 - 1128] giving you these big temperature changes.
[1128 - 1130] And you're de-glazing it all the time with sauces.
[1130 - 1133] So in a wok, you're not really gonna see that same,
[1135 - 1136] unless you do a very specific type of cooking,
[1136 - 1140] unless you're frequently stir frying very dry dishes
[1140 - 1141] or deep frying a lot.
[1141 - 1145] But you're generally not gonna see the same thick seasoning
[1145 - 1149] that you would see in a Western style cast, iron skillet,
[1149 - 1150] which is fine.
[1150 - 1151] You don't need it.
[1151 - 1153] - Yeah, it takes the pressure off
[1153 - 1154] that you have to do this perfect thing.
[1154 - 1156] You're also using a lot of acidic ingredients too,
[1156 - 1159] which if left in contact can strip away a lot of that.
[1159 - 1163] I find mine has very little around the outside,
[1163 - 1164] but obviously more at the center.
[1167 - 1169] - So you see, stir frying also should generally
[1169 - 1171] really be called toss frying.
[1171 - 1173] Because that tossing is,
[1173 - 1175] you can get away with just stirring,
[1175 - 1177] if you don't want to practice the tossing,
[1177 - 1179] or the first few times you do it,
[1179 - 1181] if you just wanna get the hang of it.
[1181 - 1184] But when you stir, you do want to use a wide spat like this
[1184 - 1186] and try and get things up and into the air.
[1186 - 1188] Because the idea is that,
[1188 - 1190] the more time it spends in the air,
[1190 - 1191] the easier it is for moisture
[1191 - 1193] to evaporate from it. - To evaporate.
[1193 - 1195] - So with the wok, the motion,
[1195 - 1196] so there's two things.
[1196 - 1198] There's tilting like this,
[1198 - 1200] and then there's translational forward and back.
[1200 - 1203] So generally, you're starting it with the wok towards you,
[1204 - 1207] tilt it away, and then you translate it forward,
[1207 - 1209] and then you tilt it back,
[1209 - 1210] and then you pull it back towards you.
[1210 - 1211] And that's the motion
[1211 - 1212] that's gonna get all the food in the air.
[1212 - 1217] And the idea is that, by doing that, you're giving the food,
[1217 - 1217] you're heating the food
[1217 - 1219] in the super heated bottom part of the wok,
[1219 - 1221] but then you're getting it up in the air
[1221 - 1222] so that moisture can evaporate.
[1222 - 1223] - That makes so much sense.
[1225 - 1227] All in the bottom there, it's just super condensed.
[1227 - 1230] So you've got water, just all the interstitial parts, right?
[1230 - 1233] - Right, exactly. - So giving that air time. - Exactly.
[1234 - 1236] So you see, I always have a bowl on the side
[1236 - 1238] for cooked ingredients so that I can cook in batches.
[1238 - 1239] And then at the very end,
[1239 - 1241] I'm gonna add everything back together. - Cool.
[1241 - 1243] Once Kenji was done with the egg and vegetables,
[1243 - 1245] he fried the rice, added the aromatics,
[1245 - 1246] then returned the egg to the wok
[1246 - 1248] and broke it up into bite size pieces
[1248 - 1250] before seasoning everything up.
[1250 - 1251] He used MSG in the eggs,
[1251 - 1253] and then a final seasoning for the dish.
[1253 - 1254] Okay, it is time to eat.
[1254 - 1255] I am so hungry.
[1257 - 1257] That was really good.
[1257 - 1259] And so I'm a huge rice lover.
[1259 - 1260] So I like the fried rices
[1260 - 1262] that are seasoned a little bit more lightly,
[1262 - 1264] the kind of stuff that you talk about growing up.
[1264 - 1266] And here, you get all the rice,
[1266 - 1267] you get all the components, they taste fresh
[1267 - 1269] and really nice.
[1269 - 1270] And it's super meaty for something
[1270 - 1272] that doesn't have meat in it.
[1272 - 1274] - Yeah, well, it's got the mushroom, and the egg,
[1274 - 1275] and the MSG.
[1277 - 1278] - That was so good.
[1278 - 1279] I can't thank Kenji enough for stopping by
[1279 - 1282] so we could do some pretty bad math,
[1282 - 1284] sorta scientific experiments together,
[1284 - 1287] and just dig in deep on all things umami.
[1287 - 1288] And he also fed me fried rice.
[1288 - 1290] This was a pretty good day at work,
[1290 - 1291] but we're not done yet.
[1291 - 1293] I'm gonna hang in the kitchen for a little bit longer
[1293 - 1296] so I can show you a couple of incredible uses for MSG.
[1296 - 1298] First up, a cocktail.
[1298 - 1300] Now real cocktail pros are probably gonna throw
[1300 - 1302] their coupe glasses at me for this,
[1302 - 1304] but I love a dirty martini. Love it.
[1304 - 1306] No, it's not the best way to taste gin and vermouth.
[1306 - 1309] Yes, it's the king of savory cocktails in my book.
[1309 - 1310] And I don't skimp on the olive brine.
[1310 - 1312] You could say I prefer a glass of olive juice
[1312 - 1313] with some gin in it.
[1313 - 1315] This couldn't be easier to put together.
[1315 - 1317] We'll start with two ounces of gin,
[1317 - 1320] one ounce of olive brine, a half an ounce of vermouth,
[1320 - 1322] and a pinch of MSG.
[1322 - 1324] I once used olive brine from a jar of olives
[1324 - 1327] that were seasoned with MSG and it blew my mind.
[1327 - 1329] So now I add it to all my dirty martinis.
[1329 - 1332] I've also seen bartenders adding it to regular martinis
[1332 - 1333] and plenty of other cocktails.
[1333 - 1334] It's very cool.
[1334 - 1335] Mmmh, Is that good?
[1335 - 1337] So savory, so delicious.
[1337 - 1339] Now, before I finish the rest of this,
[1339 - 1342] I have one more thing to show you, chili crisp.
[1342 - 1344] The iconic Chinese brand Lao Gan Ma
[1344 - 1346] put jarred chili crisp on the map,
[1346 - 1348] both in China and in over 30 countries
[1348 - 1349] around the world where it's sold.
[1349 - 1351] It provides the flavor known as ma'la',
[1351 - 1353] which means numbing and hot,
[1353 - 1356] by combining Sichuan peppercorns and spicy chilies.
[1356 - 1358] But it also brings loads of texture with fried onion
[1358 - 1360] and fermented soybeans, and of course,
[1360 - 1362] loads of umami with MSG.
[1362 - 1364] There are lots of other great chili crisp brands
[1364 - 1365] out there to try.
[1365 - 1367] I particularly like one from Fly By Jing,
[1367 - 1368] but I'm getting way off track.
[1368 - 1370] You can also make your own chili crisp at home,
[1370 - 1373] which gives you full control of flavors and textures,
[1373 - 1375] and will also save you lots of money in the long run,
[1375 - 1377] because you're gonna wanna put this on everything.
[1377 - 1380] First we combine Sichuan chili powder, peanuts,
[1380 - 1383] Sichuan peppercorns, salt, and MSG in a bowl,
[1383 - 1384] and top it with a strainer.
[1384 - 1387] Then we cook shallots and oil until deep golden brown,
[1387 - 1388] which takes about 10 minutes.
[1388 - 1390] We get the shallots out and the garlic in.
[1390 - 1393] Once that's brown, it goes to hang out with the shallot.
[1393 - 1396] Next, we add ginger, star anise, cardamom, and cinnamon
[1396 - 1399] to the oil, and cook until very fragrant
[1399 - 1401] before pouring it through the strainer, into that big bowl.
[1401 - 1404] The hot oil pulls flavor and color from the chili powder.
[1404 - 1408] Finally, we stir our fried goodies and some sesame oil.
[1408 - 1409] In terms of using your chili crisp,
[1409 - 1411] it would honestly be a lot easier
[1411 - 1413] to list out where you shouldn't use it,
[1413 - 1414] and even that would be a hard list to come up with.
[1415 - 1416] But there's one use that I first heard about
[1416 - 1420] from a food and wine article by Max Falkowitz in 2018.
[1420 - 1422] Teens in Sichuan province were putting chili crisp
[1422 - 1425] on ice cream, yeah.
[1425 - 1428] Kenji actually recently wrote about it for "The Times".
[1428 - 1431] So check this out, we have a classic sundae glass,
[1431 - 1433] scoops of vanilla ice cream,
[1433 - 1435] and we spoon on the chili crisp.
[1435 - 1436] It's just so good.
[1436 - 1439] All the crunchy bits work like any great ice cream topping,
[1439 - 1442] providing tons of texture and contrast.
[1442 - 1443] The star anise, cinnamon, and ginger,
[1443 - 1445] they play really well with vanilla.
[1445 - 1447] And most of all, you get big hits of spice
[1447 - 1450] that are immediately tempered by the ice cream.
[1450 - 1452] Then the Sichuan peppercorn start buzzing.
[1452 - 1454] It's hot, it's cold, it's sweet, it's savory,
[1454 - 1456] it's crunchy, it's smooth.
[1456 - 1458] Let's just say you will not get bored eating it.
[1458 - 1460] So whether you're a sipping dashi,
[1460 - 1462] tucking into Kenji's fried rice recipe,
[1462 - 1464] enjoying a filthy martini,
[1464 - 1466] or devouring chili crisp top ice cream,
[1466 - 1469] this is without a doubt, how to taste umami.
[1477 - 1479] Thank you all for watching so much.
[1479 - 1481] Big thanks to Kenji for coming in.
[1481 - 1485] His new book, "The Wok", it's out now. It's excellent.
[1485 - 1486] Grab yourself a copy.
[1486 - 1488] I think it's available pretty much, yeah, you guessed it,
[1488 - 1489] where books are sold.
[1489 - 1492] So chili crisp on ice cream, have you had it?
[1492 - 1494] Do you love it, are you driving to the store right now
[1494 - 1496] to get ice cream?
[1496 - 1497] I wanna hear about it in the comments.
[1497 - 1498] And if you have any other ways
[1498 - 1501] that you love to use chili crisp, I want those ideas too.
[1501 - 1502] Thanks, and I'll see you next.